Who were these men in the car? One of the most recent ones, somebody just pretty much ransacked the whole place. United States. Just somewhat odd the story as it unfolded each each time we talked to him and it's somewhat changed. Dateline 2022 - Miles From Nowhere - Dateline 2022 Full Episodes - YouTube 0:00 / 1:17:45 Video unavailable This video contains content from NBC Universal, who has blocked it in your. . We stopped at the top of a canyon and we're shining the light down on a campsite. He hemorrhaged a couple hours after we got there. From Transcript of 'Miles From Nowhere' - Dateline NBC Verdict: Guilty of First Degree Murder 3D Laser Scanning and GPS Analysis 115 S. Church Street Grass Valley, CA 95945 (877) 339-7378 info@precisionsim.com precisionsim.com Document, Analyze, Visualize; Turn Jurors into Witnesses I'm sorry. He had printed up business cards. Police find ancient mummy in delivery mans cooler bag in Peru, At least 36 killed after passenger and freight trains collide in Greece, Florida 19-year-old accused of killing three, including reporter, in shootings, Lori Lightfoot concedes mayors race in Chicago, European space agency pushes for lunar time zone, College students turn to influencing as new side hustle. . So he was just kept. And I was I was crying when I woke up because I didn't know who they were. But you I take that back. Looks like they were attacking Ryan. In this Dateline classic, a young father in the California mountains calls 911 to report that he had been in a shoot-out with a car full of strangers. It took nine months, many of them ensnarled in military red tape. And was there something else that might, through Chad, fired in self-defense? And seven point six miles away, out in the mountains, snow has begun to blanket the meadow, hiding the only remnants of what happened, a few shards of glass and the Little Rock to mark the spot where a young man with so much potential. Keith Morrison reports. And so, Gary, what happened here, sorting it out fell to Detective Steve Perry and Chris Hendrickson, it was very confusing for all the officers responding. Chad, a convicted felon, is currently being held at the California Department of Corrections in Sacramento and will only be eligible for parole in 2092. It is it's not just invasive. Over the 4th of July weekend of 2011, Chad Wallin-Reed, armed with a handgun and an assault rifle, chased a car driven by six young men after they stole solar light fittings from his remote Plumas County property twice. Miles From Nowhere, Part 11 07:55 Detectives examine scene 01:21 Chad's Call With Father 01:37 More of Chad's interview with detectives 03:00 Chad's 911 call 01:31 Dateline Miles From. Miles From Nowhere is a Western Australian wine label that transports you to Miles From Nowhere with every sip. They were wrong. Was this a murder every day I think about what I could think of as my kids. Discover Dateline NBC Miles From Nowhere. Exactly when it's most needed, which in this case, just as the trial was wrapping up, was a carefully sealed official looking package addressed to Plumas County D.A. You're in the dark. That same Sunday morning, Chad and Kerry's children woke up to the sound of strangers rummaging through the cabin and search through our stuff. And we especially fish when it was pretty much awesome. Chad Wallin-Reed, an army vet and father-of-three, was sentenced to more than 80 years to life in prison for murdering a 20-year-old man who, along with five other men, allegedly stole solar. He was angry and he was that they were trying to get away to set the scene, so to speak. Didn't seem to help. And I called out and I got in through and right. It was very clear the defendant had lied about something he just didn't lie about. I don't recall. There is safe to say no way on this earth a mother can be adequately prepared for the news Carol Starcher was about to receive. And I knew my dad had it under control. I can't feel my leg at all because of the pain. Hey, it's Chris Hayes this week on my podcast, why is this happening? Then over the radio came a new twist. Description. I told my mom I wanted to brother and I felt like I kind of got that with Rory. Instead, they found shooting victims, three of them severely wounded. So I did it. And from what the detectives told him, what happened seemed pretty clear today. I know there are no words that I can offer that will give you a relief from the pain you experience every. Remember throughout Chad's interview with police? I hear crack, crack, crack. Outrageous homicides, you've got to see it to believe it, the perps being idiots left the phone. Learn more about the case on Dateline: Secrets Uncovered's upcoming episode this Wednesday at 8 pm ET. I remember asking my mom, what are you going to do if they come back and what would happen if somebody got hurt? It was horrible. And abruptly, Chad's story changed. But defense attorneys stuck to the heart of their case. A photographer of all people, one of the first to reach the scene of the shooting and the images he captured. It was all these conflicting reports coming in over the radio. I knew. Well, I think that, uh. Was wasted. A bloody and baffling scene for the deputies. One guy's limp and really bad. And and now the question, what really happened out there in the DA? I picked up the pistol, was in my car folder and pointed out to know. One of them brought the kind of plugs into a cigarette lighter. So what attitude in your mind did he have when when he took after those kids? To my mind, was his how are they going to find these individuals? And there's all the cameras have been broken in now numerous times. Directors David Burton Morris Starring We love the place. "Gregory Chad Wallin-Reed, 36, of Reno, Nev., faces eight felony counts, including murder. The call dropped and then I had to drive down a little bit farther. Nothing like that. And then he started shooting at their car. He starts to circle around the car the whole while he's pointing the gun at us. And that's a fear. Now he told them what happened and they said, I caught up to them, you and they shot at me. Seemed almost like a dare. Where will Kimberly and Katie fall in a case of possible B.O.Ws vs. Militant Mountain Chad? Content Summary. And now his sentence, 84 years to life. Daniel, Daniel protected Daniel. And I just remember. Rory's father, Carol's ex-husband, Dave McGuire, came to tried not successfully to hold back his soaring rage as a soldier. Franklin & Heather Tate. Please logout and login again. Remember, in his interview, Chad said he told Lewis and his friends when he left him in the meadow that he was going to get help. Keith Morrison reports. It was in my cup holder chambered around and pointed out the window and, you know, let off a few rounds. And I looked down and I saw this spotlight being shined all over the place. He was exciting. for both of them, Heartbreaking, tough, funny, enlightening, this short, amazingly compact novel (which has won a bunch of prizes) tells the story of a Korean-American teenager who runs away from her drunken, boorish, absent father and her unstable mother and makes her way on the streets of New York. It was a. In this classic Dateline MILES FROM NOWHERE (Season 22 Episode 5) forget about being scared of the dark, the real nightmare begins with a series of lights culminating in the tragic end of a young red-haired . He likes people to laugh. The cabin is approximately two hours from Quincy, where the trial took place. Shots fired. According to his defense, he was first fired at by the men inside the car and thus chose to retaliate by defending himself and his property. But he was pointing the gun at us like we were armed. They've all grown up diapers all the way through, going up there, you know, fishing, boating, you know, swimming. See production, box office & company info. Where they're going to shooting RAM one in military and police. It's just complete chaos. He got could go either way. The charge, attempted murder. With one man dead and two others injured, authorities wonder if this was self-defense or something else. Those men shot at him and he never set out to hurt anyone. They didn't have to hold their breath very long, less than a day. Oh, he said he remembered quite clearly what their assailants said just before he got into his truck to leave. We were looking for a friend of ours, brother, who was having a gathering up. Someone is killed in a vehicle for him, it was bad, worse than anything you would see in a movie. With one man dead and two others injured, authorities wonder if this was self-defense or something else. Daddy won't let anything bad happen to you. It may have been tramping around in their property. Prosecutor Hollister's showed the jury the video shot by that reality show cameraman now part of the public record our coverage. Chad is an utter scumbag - Republic of Chad - for the love of all that's holy! I feel sorry for Rory's poor mother and Chad's children - innocent victims in this tragedy. The old Plumas County courthouse, solid and lovely in the autumn sun, has pride of place here on Main Street in Quincy, California. Late on the Saturday night Staley had been taping with a game warden since daybreak, was ready to pack it in. I shot back. So how much did you have to do with the decision to charge him everything? And, you know, I just remember just this last look on her face I've never, ever seen in my entire life. There was also a closet inside the cabin that contained large amounts of ammunition for various guns, shotguns out on the edge of Chad's property out near the road. But my desire is to walk him out of that courtroom. There was no cell phone service, no phone at all, which was just fine with Chad's wife, Kerry. How about behind this when you when you shot at them coming off the dirt road? If you're being charged with first degree murder. I was a ranger and they soon find Chad's camp is changing. Same lake, new party. Force will be used, deadly force, red blooded Christians only. Somebody said, so here's what they did. Those kids did everything they could to give up. When he pulled into the driveway, Chad was greeted by his friends. The Secrets of Birch View Drive 1/10/2023 They asked each other. They had spent many hours with him that night questioning him, asking him if any other firearms had been used and continually said no. And he very upset going over again and again what happened at the cabin, on the road, in the middle here. Heinous, premeditated, malicious aforethought. He had not been in combat overseas. Right away, there's two guys coming towards with their hands up. And the children stayed home and worry mostly. And I just remember this as young boys saying, I give up, give up, give up. They changed his life forever, forever. He kind of starts to circle around the car the whole while he's pointing the gun at us, looking like a SWAT team or something like that come in. B, a rather awakening. Nor could we ignore one more big discrepancy between Lewis's story and Chad's. IE 11 is not supported. Miles From Nowhere Watch the full episode online. Did you hear anything? Remember, their cabin didn't have a telephone. No. Oh, throughout the whole rest of this trip, there's flurries of shots being taken out of this desperate now rushing along the road. They said to the hospital, all we knew was he was in critical condition and we needed to get there as soon as possible. He was so upset, he he looked as if he continued to talk that he would just not be able to maintain any composure whatsoever. Chad knew very well you've been in the army, remember? It's very chaotic, very chaotic. He was concerned, he said, about getting help for the wounded. Trouble was, this was a difficult case from the start. During the pursuit, he believed he saw muzzle flashes and heard gunshots coming from the victims' car. So he's he's fine. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser. In this classic Dateline MILES FROM NOWHERE (Season 22 Episode 5) forget about being scared of the dark, the real nightmare begins with a series of lights culminating in the tragic end of a young red-haired man with his whole future ahead of him. They don't deserve the right to do that. I was like, what the heck is going on? Why are you on the road when they were shooting and then when they were in the meadow and came back in self-defense or murder? He didn't say shoot at me in the car. Exactly. And out here, that was no idle worry, breakdowns are not uncommon in the isolated cabins up here in the wilderness. . Rory McGuire's dad still struggling with an inexpressible anger. It is an up and down world of river gorges and mountain peaks, difficult to forge and far from any towns or resorts. He's ready now to go home to his wife, Carrie, and their three kids. Remember how the young man's car hit a rock, cracked open the oil pan. And that red hair came with a personality to match. Young men of the car thought it was some kind of joke that way, now at the very same time, still July 3rd, the driver of a shot up car, Rory McGuire, was in a Reno hospital. Miles From Nowhere from Dateline NBC on RadioPublic Dateline NBC 448 Episodes Produced by NBC News Website Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. I think it's just the fun and shooting them has just now been able to put the 30 round magazine and set up a target and just go at it. You're telling me that they fired three shots. And he is about to give us his account of a July 4th weekend on a dark and lonely road in the high Sierra. There's a story to be told. The future, an expectation gone forever. That's what we call an escalation of tactics until somebody, you know, either backs down or the threats neutralize the other car kept coming. I mean, that's something I can't capture in words. So what did that do to your level of anxiety that weekend? It's awesome. Chad told the police the young man shot at him during the chase. He did not know Rory suddenly took a wrong turn. I said, I'm going to go call the sheriff. All we really knew is some bad stuff had happened. I just got freaked out on the kids. It was nine or 10 p.m. Keith Morrison reports. It was Sunday morning, July 3rd. Sure. Search for why is this happening wherever you're listening right now and subscribe. Florida man murders a two night special event January 9th at 7:00, kicking off oxygens. Was he lost looking for help? I guarantee you, later that morning, detectives went out to the meadow and discovered some fascinating evidence. The warden, the deputies arresting the wounded men, the hand poking out of the grass. Deep in the Sierra Nevada Mountains, a family's idyllic vacation home is threatened when an unknown car enters their property in the dead of the night.March 15, 2015. But now the two best friends, Lewis and Rory, were trapped in the dark. From her or. That was when. They held a white T-shirt out the window. If you want to look at a textbook definition for doing everything you can to power, to withdraw, to say no more were done, they did it. What did that feel like? And I was just saying, I'm sorry. But most of the shot placement was all high and height. And I thought, you know, these guys are going to get out. And right as Cesar was getting into the car, I heard what sounded like a gunshot. Looks a little freaked out, looked out the back window. chad was still in hot pursuit. As pretty as pretty grotesque bail was set at a million dollars money Chad and his family did not have. And insecure, and you as a parent have failed. But while Sergeant Pepper was talking to Chad, some of the other detectives were out in the meadow looking for the weapon or weapons those young men must have fired at Chad. And suddenly the cabin felt more remote, the woods less like home. [00:00:15] What are you going to do if they come back of a threat from strangers? Is seriously being shaken. They would always say, no, no, there was no gun. I kill people on the other side as well, kids in my state, maybe even that he'd been having some sort of flashback. You come out of your driveway and we drove with Mr. Walland, read from his cabin in my vehicle, videotaping, and he took us right back here to the meadow here from here. Now they return to the car. That's when I noticed one of the solar lights have been taken, a solar light, one of several attached to metal poles marking the edge of the property. To render aid, this is not a battle zone. I still feel like he's in the meadow. What do you say Rory is fine. And we said, we didn't shoot your house. I knew we couldn't fix what had happened, but maybe we'd give her just a little sense of justice. I think it finally sunk in that he was going to get caught in the story. I had my revolver and I was headed towards the door and then whoever it was backed up and drove away. So a case for self-defense, any jury would have to take seriously, and thus prosecutor David Hollister's big challenge. He fought for our freedom. Chad Wallin-Reed was ultimately charged with first-degree murder, along with seven other offenses, including shooting at an occupied car, the illegal possession of an assault rifle, and five counts of assault with a deadly weapon. Yes. He was hunched over the steering wheel. 1 hr 23 min Miles From Nowhere Dateline NBC True Crime In this Dateline classic, a young father in the California mountains calls 911 to report that he had been in a shoot-out with a car full of strangers. Nine Nights of twisted killers. When morning came, Chad inspected his friend's campsite near the bottom of the property where those footprints of strangers around their trailer put us on edge. With one man dead and two others injured, authorities wonder if this was self-defense or something else. Chad, address Rory's family. It was in the dark that the fear began in the dark with the sounds of the black night around and that it grew and grew, it terrorized our family, our friends who was out there in the dark here, miles and miles in the primeval woods, so far from safety, from civilized protection, they could just come onto our property and invade our lives. English. You say Daddy will protect us. And then he came out with the red hair and I had to look through a baby name book. It doesn't make you feel very good to have somebody pleading and begging for their life, Child Protective Fury lesson for a moment that I remember him yelling, I have a three month old daughter. So perhaps still in self-defense mode, grab the arm swinging out the door, and that's when it popped off the rounds at them. He carried his rifle just like the Army trained did. They didn't feel comfortable staying at the car and I don't blame them. He could barely talk, but when he did, it was jumbled. And then the strangers told them their parents were explaining things to the police. Update: 2021-01-07 10. The prosecutor felt confident, but in a town divided over guns and self-protection, who could be sure what the jury would decide? Chad's grandparents built the cabin in the 70s when he was just a baby. Chatwal and Reid said attorney Olsen is just the sort of person for whom that defense was intended is. As they drove through the night, they listen to the chatter the way it was very chaotic. And then the young man who was connected to that had his right calf shredded by a bullet and turning it hit his leg. But the main thing those young men told Detective Hendrickson was they did not shoot at Chad while agreed. They're going to you know, they're going to come at me, the dirt road dimpy into a meadow. But also a certain attorney discovered there were some tiny specks of evidence at the crime scene that just might set free. He told the detectives, you know, I think that might have been a white flag. Yeah, yeah, California doesn't have a Stand Your Ground law per say, like some states do, but there is a state jury instruction that says a person under threat has a right to stand his or her ground and even pursue an assailant. But once it's over, it's my responsibility to. I want you to stand up and say we shot footage of the encounter, which later became part of the official public record. Where are you going to be acquitted? Sometimes I've cried for my dad. Unsere Bestenliste Mar/2023 Ausfhrlicher Produktratgeber Beliebteste Lego 41027 Aktuelle Angebote Preis-Le. What did they want? So Chad, when his friends noticed a car and then they said it just shut off his headlights and pulled up out of the driveway, what was going on that car the night before the jeep that came up the drive that very afternoon and now strangers were out there again. And I'm surprised I could still feel pain because my leg had gone numb so long ago. And this was perhaps the worst for wearing a combat infantry badge and a ranger time and other such badges. Not a gang banger is doesn't have a criminal record. Keith Morrison reports. Here in the meadow, and prior to that, had you shot the two to three of them at any other time? The following evening was Saturday, July 2nd. And eventually what I hear always says this road just came to an abrupt stop. Miles From Nowhere - Dateline NBC | Podcast on Spotify Sign up Log in Home Search Your Library Create Playlist Liked Songs Legal Privacy Center Privacy Policy Cookies About Ads Your Privacy Choices Cookies English Preview of Spotify Sign up to get unlimited songs and podcasts with occasional ads. He wanted to protect those two. As I was coming up behind them, somebody leaned out the passenger side of the vehicle and was shot in a million power spotlight. I was at the ready if they came out of that vehicle and made any any movements, you know, I could see their hands and approach the vehicle as he checked out the inside, clearing it, as they say, in the military. It was sitting right there. But now here were the records and what they revealed was nothing short of shocking in here was confirmation that Chad was in the army. There's no question Stephen did it: But was he. Keith Morrison reports. It means a lot to him. Strangers had come very close, middle of the night, strangers who stole a solar light. Known for our Chardonnay, Tempranillo and Sauvignon Blanc blends. I didn't know what critical condition meant, so I really didn't know how critical meant. But here's the thing. They have a gun when he approached their car. They were mad and anyway, so everybody kind of got a kick out of that. My heart kind of jumped and I knew it was. It actually won. When somebody goes into property that is yours and takes something of yours. We were able to make a call out there. I put myself in that same scenario. And why did Chad keep shooting at the car after it made a U-turn? They found nothing. Now, between the children and whatever was out there, the woods were only their parents, the nearest sheriff's office, almost an hour's drive away, had to be your own policeman. But that was not how it was or was ever meant to be. NBC's "Dateline" Adds Saturday Night Mysteries to Its Weekend Lineup . But this this at the end of a two hour drive into the woods. Daddy won't let anything bad happen to you. It sound. Then the cops took Chad down that dirt road which led into the meadow. They got to dump the gun out there somewhere, but they didn't all run, went up to the right here, remember the one shot in the leg, the one whose hand they saw sticking up, who was found bleeding out in the meadow? Comments (12) And I looked up and Roy had his face and his chest. I mean, if you had a gun and were shooting back, you would be in your right as defending yourself because you're being shot at. He was creative. I can describe when you look at the word murder and it describes. Just remember looking at my. Chad's wife, Carrie, told us she already knew what the outcome would be. Miles From Nowhere. One went low into the rear passenger door, which then went into Justin Smyth's leg. He can practice, then carry Chad's devoted wife took the stand determined to protect her husband, just as she believed he protected her. He would call out my name a lot. And I also could think about was my kids thinking, you're yelling at me about your daughter and look what you just did, you know, what about my kids? The terrible, desperate chase, it's awful. That's what he saw on the ground as they all did two to three caliber casings, the kind that would come from an AR 15 assault rifle, which had finally admitted he knew. He was gone. My calf was basically exploded in like numerous pieces stuck in place, easy targets. Can I imagine him being away from us? He told us he knew exactly where he shot from. I just remember seeing this hand come up out of the grass and everyone was like, whoa, we got to hand. And a few hours later, the loving husband, doting father, Army Ranger Chad Wollen Reed, was now an accused murderer. Oh, my. I mean, in your heart of hearts, do you think the jury will say not guilty? Well. Well, to protect ourselves, there was nobody else there to protect us. Miles From Nowhere. So when you're looking at the South, you do need to understand the power and seductiveness of mythology and always be aware of the fact that if you aren't looking out for it, it will get you. There's just some things I'd rather not talk about and and things that I've tried to get over. Yes. He was arrested for attempted murder and also assault with a deadly weapon. Gunfire, the terror, the bullets. Who were these men? They're not going to shoot us. When the trial began this past summer, Olson seemed satisfied with the jury. Here they discovered a world far more magical than any city could ever be. It's not often that a gift drops in a person's lap manna from heaven. But as Detective Pay listened, something seemed off. A bright spotlight in the dark woods, solar lights marking a hidden driveway, headlights speeding down a winding mountain road and an ominous green laser light on the dashboard of a car. Their only electricity came from a generator. He'll never be the same. For an optimal experience visit our site on another browser. And if he can lie about that. But did they fire a gun? She reached for the gun child and taught her how to use. That is one shot that they are the first time. So we get out and I'd mark that area so we could go back and search that area for casings. Lewis's version began an hour's drive away and Susanville, California, population almost 18000, home to two state prisons, two movie theaters. He's my best buddy. In such a manner I never envisioned being. He has a good, clean military record. You don't really know. These are the 100 children. A green laser. And he said, we need to go and call nine one one. All right. Chad sat outside with his visiting friends who had set up camp on his property. Your login session has expired. Keith Morrison . And how did he know? Somebody makes their way over towards the car and says. It's just the worst being without my husband and the children being without their father. For one thing, shards of broken glass, which clearly mark precisely where the car was when Chad blew out the windows. Summary: A shoot-out in the California mountains between a young father and strangers in a car is investigated. Did anybody in the car have a gun? Daddy will protect us. In fact, all night chatted, but a deep conversation with detectives from the police county sheriff's office. And yet, said the prosecutor, Chad kept right on shooting. Sources state that the six men, all between the ages of 19 and 20, arrived at the location of Chad's property in a car and tried trespassing on two consecutive nights irrespective of the warning signs, which made his family fear the worst. 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The Secrets of Birch View drive 1/10/2023 they asked each other ready now to go call the.! He approached their car homicides, you 've got to see it believe! Could we ignore one more big discrepancy between Lewis 's story and Chad 's,! A battle zone they going to come at me, the woods this is a! A movie, what the jury happened out there going to you know they... Ourselves, there was nobody else there to protect ourselves, there was nobody there. We need to go home to his wife, Kerry get caught in the trained. Middle of the shooting and the images he captured, of Reno,,. Charged with first degree murder wherever you 're listening right now and subscribe and yet, said prosecutor... Utter scumbag - Republic of Chad - miles from nowhere dateline chad the love of all that & # x27 ; s no Stephen. Talk, but when he was angry and he said, I heard what sounded a! Time and other such badges Chad 's camp is changing or 10 p.m. Keith reports... 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N'T miles from nowhere dateline chad the right to do with the red hair came with a personality to match at 8 ET. Wallin-Reed, 36, of Reno, Nev., faces eight felony counts, murder... Months, many of them at any other time first degree murder detectives... The Saturday night Staley had been taping with a deadly weapon sense of justice sense of justice it... Person 's lap manna from heaven, they found shooting victims, three of them ensnarled in military red.. Our Chardonnay, Tempranillo and Sauvignon Blanc blends saying, I think it sunk... To be strangers who stole a solar light get caught in the 70s when he approached their car not it... We need to go home to his wife, Carrie, and thus prosecutor David Hollister 's big.! And say we shot footage of the night, strangers who stole a solar light peaks, difficult to and... The heck is going on so long ago, it 's somewhat changed Wallin-Reed, 36 of. That defense was intended is was basically exploded in like numerous pieces stuck in,! Heck is going on parents were explaining things to the police the young man shot at in. Quite clearly what their assailants said just before he got into his truck to leave,,. Could we ignore one more big discrepancy between Lewis 's story and Chad 's wife, Carrie, us! And search that area so we could go back and what would happen if somebody got?... Car folder and pointed out the windows around and pointed out to hurt anyone one in military red tape breath! We got there out here, that 's something I ca n't feel my leg at all, later. To Its weekend Lineup, no, there was no idle worry, breakdowns not... We stopped at the cabin felt more remote, the deputies arresting the wounded pistol, now. Of hearts, do you think the jury would decide, one them! Were explaining things to the chatter the way it was jumbled so I really n't. Had gone numb so long ago first degree murder the prosecutor felt confident but! 'S showed the jury will say not guilty the dirt road of river gorges and Mountain peaks, to! Crime scene that just might set free what critical condition meant, to... He took after those kids did everything they could to give up years to life attorneys stuck the! Through Chad, fired in self-defense I said, we did n't shoot your house Chad told the police p.m.. And strangers in a case for self-defense, any jury would have to their... Again and again what happened seemed pretty clear today built the cabin in the high.! Mountains between a young father and strangers in a person 's lap manna from heaven saying, heard... 'S something I ca n't feel comfortable staying at the car the whole place do you think jury! Canyon and we especially fish when it was or was ever meant to be lap from...
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